Author Topic: Recent changes  (Read 9660 times)

Offline Ancano

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Recent changes
« on: May 06, 2020, 03:07:36 PM »
Hey there,

I don't want to make this another QQ post, and I'll try my best not to.

I just noticed that spellsinger cancel removes 1 buff. What?

Okay, I don't think reducing amount of buffs canceled from 2 -> 1 is a good thing. I do not understand the motive behind this. How is this going to improve balance in pvp?
This is going to make mass pvp even more endless than it is now with full gear and buffs. How will a healer die without cancel? Instead of buffing HK and making him cancel more than 2 buffs with his Insane Crusher, you nerf another cancel class. Instead of making soulhound at least playable(!) by making his steal divinity at least having 100% chance for the first buff(!!!) you nerf spellsinger/sorcerors? And this is all in a server that you can simply hide for 15 seconds and rebuff mid-fight! Cancel was by NO WAY broken or problematic.

I have been noticing various changes for the last 2 days. Some of them felt really bad and I am hoping they are only temporary. Quick note that testing on the live server is really bad, and should be done on a test server. That said, the recent changes are starting to feel more and more weird and biased, I can't really see a balancing effort in this, even though i'm struggling hard to.

Tank damage from bow was supposed to get nerfed, and I'm still getting hit 2.6k-2.8k (!) on light armor. This is straight up bullshit. And you remove the only way a tank like this can die, which is by cancel or buff steal classes. Do you want the whole server to play tanks inside olympiad? Do you want players to stop playing cancel nukers and switch all to daggers/archers in mass pvp?

Why don't you instead focus on other more serious issues like:

Magical/physical Mirror tank self-buff is BROKEN. It reflects WAY more often than 10% of the time. Normally when you play against an AI/FI charged paladin running at you like crazy, you try to slow him. Guess what, here if you try that, all slows are gonna simply reflect on you, so you better not even do that. It's actually more likely you'll die if you try to slow them, which is just dumb.

Critical damage SA doesn't work on single daggers. It literally adds 0 critical damage. You're better off playing with Haste SA. Tested with all single daggers, even +16 mamba with and w/o crt dmg SA.

Vicious stance doesn't add any damage to blows when they are done by a player wearing dual daggers.

Actually, regarding crt damage formula, it's broken at its core. Normally critical damage is applied like this:

Damage on critical = (Crt. dmg. multipliers)x(damage from auto attack) + (Flat bonus crt dmg)

Here, for auto-attacks and blows from dual daggers, the (flat) part is completely ignored. I tested this with vorpal set bonus flat crt dmg bonus, vicious stance, crt dmg SA. Everywhere it's the same. Btw, this is the reason single and dual daggers do comparable damage here, when normally single dagger is WAY better for blow damage. Are you aware of this GM staff? (Note: by crt.dmg. multiplier I mean % increases in critical damage provided by: death whisper, AQ/baium, chant of victory, cat buff, furious soul etc.)

Also, all S-grade single daggers up to Vesper do the same damage regardless of p.atk. They are ONLY critical damage multiplier dependent. Then suddenly it all changes with mamba edge, where u see a boost upwards. Backwards engineering this was just a futile attempt, I could not explain this.

Doombringer's Dark smash skill is weaker by 30-50% than normal.

Soulhound's and Doombringer's debuff resists and p/m. defenses are tweaked down.

Soulhound's Soul of Pain and Annihilation Circle are nerfed hard, doing 200-300 damage on full buffs, to the point where it's not even worth casting them. (should be at least 500)

Soulhound's Steal Divinity is a joke. Soulhound normally relies on the ability to steal someone else's power, and take advantage of them himself. The class isn't strong on its own. You have completely removed the ability to play like this, in olympiad it's like a bird with destroyed wings, it can barely win classes that it normally stomps and all in all, it's sadly unplayable. Make steal divinity steal 2 buffs with 100% chance and/or INCREASE some resists of kamael. Really, the current state is simply sad. That said, two skills that are nerfed (soul strike, leopold) seem to make the same damage that they would do on magic crit if they were unnerfed. For example, 1k w/o crit and 4k with crit while not being buffed. Or Soul of pain that sometimes makes 200 damage, sometimes 400, and sometimes 1600 on a crit. Again, with no buffs. What the hell  ;D

Critical damage multiplier is capped at x1500%. Is this done to prevent titans on frenzy owning whole parties?

Magic critical rate is capped at 12%. Yes, you read that right, it's not 20%, but 12%. For ALL classes. Spellsinger, Sorceror, Spellhowler, Necromancer, Bishop, Soulhound, here they all have the same chance for a magic crit.
When I first saw this, I was sure the .stats panel was broken, and that's why it showed 12.0 magic crit rate for everyone.
But then I tested it. I tested with Spellsinger and Soulhound, with 2.4k spell casts in total. (100 isn't enough Ainu, you should be doing tests with 500 tries at least, source:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_large_numbers)

So,

I am honestly baffled by all of this. When I started here, I saw a fine-tuned server, with little balance issues. But lately, with recent changes in the wrong direction, and other serious issued left unanswered/unfixed I am beginning to feel that the GM staff either doesn't care or doesn't know how to move in the right direction.
With all of this said, I would PLEASE ask from you, that you take the players' considerations into account. Not the QQers, not the donators, but the ones that actually test, justify, and care for the server.

Thanks!

EDIT: One BIG request from many players that I talk with, is that you add a changelog to the forum, and you update it every time you make balance changes. This is a must for any game, players must know the changes and be able to adapt to them, not test on their own in arenas with 2k spells! Everything should be transparent, since I trust you don't have anything to hide, right? Add any changes you make!!!
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 03:10:54 PM by Ancano »

Offline Warrior

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Re: Recent changes
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2020, 04:13:32 PM »
Buffs don't come back when they are cancelled so 1 cancelled buff per cast is fine by me. However, the 1 cancelled buff should be random not that it always cancels the last one. Morever there is 100% chance that you cancell a buff so that alone makes it powerful.

In my opinion only if buffs returned after like 10-15 seconds 2 buffs would be jusitified.

Regarding magic critical rate fixed at 12% chance. I feel like it should be distinguished not that all mage classes have the same chance, some classes like spellhowler will benefit from it more than the others.

« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 05:02:40 PM by Warrior »

Offline Mikleo

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Re: Recent changes
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2020, 04:20:47 PM »
*sighs* Archmage/spellsinger getting their cancellation nerfed to 1 buff, when both of these these classes revolve around that spell, seems pretty dumb to me. At least compensate for it as both of these classes aren't as damage revolved as storm screamers are when they could easily take us down even prior the change just by pure damage and standing, looking pretty.

I agree with the fact that now the pvp will just be even longer and more tiring as no more cancelling tactics for healers in mass pvp/sieges or even in 1v1 situations when the person can just run around a rock, unflag cause it's literally a few seconds (why?) and rebuff himself back.

And again, the issues that have been here for a long time that Ancano mentioned should be taken into consideration, (especially the soulhound one) since they are way more important than creating new problems. I feel like the change was only done purely cause of the people that are crying about the rise of spellsinger/archmage since they weren't a big deal in the past.

2 buffs wouldn't be justified even if they were to come back 10-15 secs later cause then people would just make elemental resistance dances/songs the last buffs and it would be useless since they would come back at the same time as cancellation, it would be a neverending cycle or removing nothing basically.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 04:36:56 PM by Mikleo »

Offline Warrior

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Re: Recent changes
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2020, 04:39:39 PM »
I just wanted to say that I didn't like how the cancel worked both in the past and now and it should be reworked.
Skills and stats that should have resisted cancel don't work so why give 100% chance to cancel 2 buffs? Keep it 1 but make the song/dance cancelled random. Or, even better, revert as it worked before but make the buffs return after a reasonable amount of time. That is only my sugesstion.

What I agree though is that sps / archmage got nerfed a lot compared to, for example, spellhowler who has basiclly full c. speed / m. atack with enlighment.

P.S.
I'd like to see updated changelog too.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2020, 09:16:05 PM by Warrior »

Offline Ancano

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Re: Recent changes
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2020, 06:32:25 PM »
Warrior, the fact that you didn't like how it was working before doesn't mean anything about if this change is correct or no. You obviously speak as someone who hasn't played these classes and you are obviously biased.
How about titan without zealot? Or paladin with only 1 icon. Don't make me laugh, even 2 buff 100% cancel isn't that strong if u have a bit of brain. Let me just remind you that in the original game you could have 5, yes 5, FIVE buffs canceled and that class still wasn't broken. Please don't bother and let ppl that know this game talk

Offline Rocker

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Re: Recent changes
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2020, 08:17:34 PM »
The biggest problem with changes is not exactly being made, but being made without any communication. We have already noticed several changes in Dominators (nerf dreaming spirit all rotes, increased chain reuse), SHs (nerf in varied skills), Cardinals (increased chain reuse), without any prior notice. We noticed and reported to staff, we tried to adapt. But it is frustrating in the way it occurs.

I agree with Ancano that the only gameplay alternative for wizards is cancel, however, it is also true that the skill's delay here is very fast in full buff endgame chars, (which is not the oly condition).

About endless pvps, I think you know very well that this is not how the server is at the moment. In fact, with certain settings, pvps are gone in seconds.

In my opinion, everything that makes pvp last longer is valid. Goods Pvps maintain engagement in the endgame. Alternatives would be to give a significant boost to the songs (song against arrow is ridiculous here, it would solve the mages' problem), dances, and tankers, not in damage attack status, obv, but in defense status, since that is their function.

Offline anhel

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Re: Recent changes
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2020, 10:03:59 PM »
Well i dont want to make another qq topic....sh1t just made it already... however lets stop the jokes.


So the 2 buff cancel were pretty fine from my side as well as he/she mentioned. The bullshit comes when it cancels the last 2 buffs which is pretty good in open pvp from several ways and disgusting in olympiad as Ancano is "abusing" it already. Once you using a key spell you have to rebuff something asap or u'r fucked. So probably is should be better as random 2 buffs!

About pala i think the proper nerf as start would be an armor type penalty. It should really solve the problems and should do most matches as 50-50.

SLH is way too nerfed he/she is right!

About daggers.... lets not talk about it its already way op! Especially in oly where max clarity is not working well cause of the perma dagger mastery which removes mana cost from skills.

And the most important part where he/she is right: ANNOUNCE THE CHANGELIST. if its needed we can spell it letter to letter! 

Offline pekeko

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Re: Recent changes
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2020, 11:15:13 PM »
+1 stop nerf chars... dagger OP, Tricker OP, SoulTaker OP... common you cannot play that way, only feeling to leave the server ....

Offline oXo

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Re: Recent changes
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2020, 04:40:35 AM »
I completely agree with Ancano,
Especially in the Crit Damage side of things - there is a formula that is being completely ignored and to top it off the weapons are not even working properly in conjunction with the dagger classes.

For example no one was using 1-hand daggers until Xu came along and made use of it, even then we had made various tests and realised that it was not ever working properly at all. Yet he continues to use it only for style purposes hoping it will be fixed soon and so do I. Do not even get us started on Dodge - it was working as intended  and now skills are going through whilst it is active ? Lolol the one skill that separates Wind Riders from any other class in the game let alone daggers 

Anyone that says daggers are OP most definitely have no clue the skill it actually takes to be very useful as one, bare in mind that 80% of people who pick a dagger class is experienced and/or a little more than decent at it. In fact, if you haven't realised since you've started playing l2 daggers playstyle hasn't changed much.... they pretty much ALWAYS seem "OP". It bothers me that people that don't have the skill to play one keep complaining about it. Anyway a lot of people are due to leave the server soon if nothing is done about this.

SOULHOUNDS:
^
I'll keep this very simple because the fact that 'Steal Divinity' works NOTHING and I mean NOTHING like it should is proof that whoever is making changes knows NOTHING.
^
STEAL DIVINITY: THERE IS NO IF BUTS OR MAYBES... This skill is supposed to work as such (period.):
- Opponent/Enemy uses an active skill for example 'Ultimate Evasion'
- Soulhound uses Steal Divinity
- Soulhound steals the LAST active buff/s the enemy/opponent has used
^
If enemy/opponent has not used any active skills then Soulhound steals up to 3 Random Buffs <- this is FACTS!

Even in servers where steal divinity has not worked well and needed improvements I have never seen it so USELESS as it is... literally it does NOTHING whilst it's supposed to be one of the best skills in L2 since it was created.
----------
Archmage/Mystic Muse:

Cancellation should cancel 2 buffs MINIMUM... why not make a chance ratio and thats that.
For example:

2 songs/Dances get cancelled 100%
3 songs//dances get canceled with 50% chance (comes back within 1 min)

^ this is fair game. Why? Because if someone has enough skill to last 1 minute on the pvp field after being canceled 3 buffs then it should return to the player as a reward/even playing field.
This also makes MASS pvp/sieges perfect for determining winners & losers.

 Last thing to point out ... Fear on Cost +30 isn't even worth on Cost because it should be much longer but let's leave this one out for later in future depending on class balancing since it's not much of a big problem.

First... FIX SOULHOUNDS FOR PVP PERIOD. They are versatile classes that should be able to swap from rapiers to 2h and 1hand acumen weapons instead they use rapiers to land debuffs and nothing more.

Curse of divinity should be doing much more damage the more buffed the enemy char is...
I agree with Ancano i've noticed the crits and flat damage are ALL OVER THE PLACE... they hit 300 5x and can hit a 1.4k crit then 500 twice then 300 4x again and then next thing you know a 2.7k crit or 3k max crit can come out of nowhere it doesn't make fkn sense.


Offline oXo

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Re: Recent changes
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2020, 05:04:09 AM »
Also quick note:
The whole point of Steal Divinity stealing up to 3 random buffs if opponent has not got any active buffs on,
 is so that it remains a blessing & a curse to the Soulhound... it pushes you to become even more skillful (whilst having 10000 other skills to use meanwhile) and risking stealing buffs you don't need/want or overbuffing yourself accidentally and forced to play a different style.

Though personally I think, to be really honest there are so many other errors in class balancing that even if it were to get fixed it wouldn't do much (outside of oly i.e. pvp) at this rate... it would just make things more messy.

Offline Boom

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Re: Recent changes
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2020, 02:55:25 PM »
Can you just please stop randomly breaking classes?

Look at ALL the complaints from last days/weeks.
Wtf is happening???

My adventurer is completely broke, while Ghost hunter and Wind rider are just fine?

Buff cancels went from returning 4-5 buffs after 1 minute, to 2 buffs permanent, to 1 buff permanent.....? What's gonna happen next week or when ever you feel like it?

WHERE IS THE CHANGE EVERYONE WANTS TO SEE IN PHOENIX KNIGHT IN OLY???

Im sorry but you are just randomly doing crap, no matter the outcome.

Please first find a balance on test server, and then do ALL CHANGES AT SAME TIME, WITH CHANGELOG so the players (who actually play this damn game all day long) can give you feedback.

If you decide to just randomly break classes, atleast give me the option in donation store to reroll to another race/class with my character or I may aswel throw it in the trash.


Offline Mikleo

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Re: Recent changes
« Reply #11 on: June 02, 2020, 02:32:48 PM »
So any replies from the gm's in this post? Cause I still want to know if cancellation removing only 1buff some sort of test or something, cause you guys still don't do the things we reccomended aka to show all the balancing patches to get used to the nerfs and buffs? Things are being edited silently and it's annoying...